Left / Right Combat random instead of "battle value"
After the discussion at http://planets.nu/discussion/left-right-combat I've decided to post it as a suggestion.
The "problems" with left/right combat right now are
a) left/right being controlled by friendly code prevents the tactical use of friendly code to control battle order
b) in carrier vs carrier fights the left side (or non-aggressive side) is the advantage, so it is in both players best interest to not initiate a fight at all.
This solution may not be perfect, but it doesn't interfere with the current value of building any ship. what i mean is that from what i can tell there is no unintended consequences.
it frees up the friendly code to be used tactically, and nobody can control which side they get. also, it might not be too difficult to write :)
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Psydev commented
I kind of like the idea that one side gets an advantage. The rationale for this system was to make "defending" carriers have an advantage against "attacking" carriers (i.e. the ones with primary enemy set, and/or kill mission set). The carrier not set to attack will have an advantage.
I disagree with the randomness idea. Randomness is generally not fun.
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thin commented
ship experience is not documented properly - i have my info from donovan's.
to me it is absolutely logical that ships with experience fight better than some without.
since the user can't look the experience up, unless he calculates it is a kind of semi-random mechanism, and the left-right difference could be used for that.and it is one task less for the friendly codes, which are soo 'last millennium'
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Attercob commented
@Finn I disagree with your comment about injecting an artificial random elements in the game.
Take a look at the game of Chess. There is no random element. No one is rolling dice, or drawing cards. There are no statistics influencing moves. There are no hidden forces working against you. Everything you are capable of and everything your opponent is capable of is revealed for all to see on the board. The only thing you can't see is the inner workings of your opponents mind. But other than his plans, he can't hide anything from you.
Take a look at Poker. Arguably, still a game of strategy, but now it's less about considering your opponents capababilities, because there is no certainty there. Now it becomes more about statistics. In Poker you play the odds. Strategy is reduced, but is still present. But now Math is a huge factor.
Both of these games are incredibly complex and fun. But none of these games are made fun because of the random element. I would like to imagine that VGA Planets is kin to these kinds of games.
I said that the left side advantage was artificial, because there is no reason for one side or the other to perform better. It's completely arbitrary. Tim Wiseman has even agreed it was an unexpected bug. To say that a fight should have a random coin toss to see if one ship should get an advantage for no other reason just doesn't jive with the rest of the feel of the game. I say make the game more about math. Statistical probability based outcomes can still generate difficult to predict events, or unexpected wins and losses with out making the whole thing seem arbitrary.
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coldsteel commented
I'm not sure that making it random is the best thing. I'd rather we eliminate left-advantage in carrier battles while keeping possibility mass bonus for torp ships vs. carriers.
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Finn commented
The newer versions of Phost do amazing things with experience that really enhance gameplay. But it is also complicated. Experience in NU only affects ion storms.
I am the person who recommended left/right be random as a simple solution. The difference (or something like it) is necessary to add an important level of randomness to combat. It prevents combat from becoming a simple mathematical exercise.
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Attercob commented
@thin - What does that experience actually do? As far as I can tell, ship experience only helps for surviving ion-storms, and has nothing to do with battle performance.
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Attercob commented
@Veldan I agree. Fix the problem. Make left side/right side irrelevant.
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thin commented
ships already get experience - by travelling, fighting and crossing ion storms
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Anonymous commented
Another way of doing it is to assign a local variable to ships that increases after every successful battle (experience). Using this var you could lend weight to malfunctions and even torpedo hits.
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esneskrad commented
The side you fight from should not affect the battle outcome. This is illogical (and unfair).
The battle engine should instead randomise equipment malfunction i.e. lasers sometimes will not fire or a fighter bay malfunctions. Torps already miss 40% of the time, so they are already randomised.
I'm not sure, but the battle engine may already cause random laser & fighter failure.
The failed part should have a X through it (or some other indication) to identify that it failed. -
softmonk commented
removing the advantage is the best idea, and i totally agree with it. i suggested randomizing as an easier way to solve the problems invoked by the advantage interfering with battle order tactics. keep in mind that removing the advantage changes the value of some ships. I personally don't mind because as is noted, Tim called it a bug.
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Kasper Holmberg Laursen commented
@veldan
I agree with you that the whole side bonus aspect might as well be removed. -
veldan commented
I'd rather see time spent on developing/copying a fleet combat engine rather than fixing the old serial combat engine.
However, if they are going to fix it, I would say mimic the patch phost made (almost immediately in its development). Of removing the left side advantage since Tim accepted it as a bug. That's more fair than making the side random.
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Nitemare commented
Random for sure prevents tactical advantage. If the developers wanna change it is up to them but please for sure not for putting it at random.
Regards,
Nite
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Kasper Holmberg Laursen commented
This should definitely be changed in one way or another.
Might as well come up with a new system. The important thing is that this needs to be random rather than decided by the side you enter the VCR from.
Your suggestion is to randomly chose the side right? If so that is an easy fix, but i believe better systems can be implemented.